Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Real Evidence podcast. My name is Myron, and today Ashley and I got to sit down with Corey Foreman. Corey brings over 20 years of experience as a child abuse detective. He's based out of the Dallas Police Department in Texas. And we just got to sit down and hear a little bit more about his story, how he got into what he's doing today and has been doing, and also advice and practical things that might be helpful for people who don't know a lot about what he does. So we hope you enjoyed this time with Corey.
Corey, thanks so much for joining us on this podcast. How are you doing today, man?
[00:00:38] Speaker B: I'm well. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Awesome. We're so excited to have you. Maybe just for the folks listening, could you just give a quick intro? What's your role and how long you've been doing it and anything else you want to share there?
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Well, I'm Corey Forman.
I'm from Garland, Texas. I've been a police officer with the Dallas Police Department for 31 years. I've been investigating child abuse cases for the last 20 years.
And like a lot of jobs, hey, every day is not the same. Every day is different. You never know what you're going to encounter.
But I love it. I have a passion for it, and that's why I've been doing it so long, and I think I'll be doing it a few years longer.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Yeah. What led you into getting into this? Like, what, what? I. I'm, I'm, you know. What did you study in college? What. What was sort of your background? And then, you know, of all of the investigative things and, and routes you could have gone in law enforcement. What led you down this path?
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Well, it's kind of strange. I actually, I went to University of Texas at Dallas, and I was taking a criminal justice course. There was a lady that was in my class.
She was taking some additional courses as well. She was a detective here at the Dallas Police Department in the Child Abuse Unit. She had talked to me about what I thought I wanted to do. Originally, I thought about going to work in the prison system, but she talked to me a little bit. Part of my degree program was that I had to do an internship. Well, she talked to me about doing it with the Dallas Police Department and the Child Abuse Unit, which I was able to do that at the Children's Advocacy Center. I did that for one semester, and I met all the detectives, and I was able to get a glimpse at what they, what they did. And that alone kind of just changed my mind and what direction I wanted to go in. However, once I graduated from college, before you become a detective, you have to go work patrol. So I did that for several years and did a couple of different jobs. And then after 12 years, I finally got the call to come interview for the position. So I did what.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Tell me, tell us a little bit about your passion for it. So what, you know, you talk about being passionate and caring for it. Just. Yeah, tell us a little bit more about that. How would you describe that and what's, what's fueled the passion?
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Well, for me, on a daily basis, I watch children that are, that are victims of physical and sexual abuse. And I watch those interviews that are, that are conducted, which are not conducted by us, the police, but by forensic interviewers, people who are trained to interview children that are not police or not cps. And so day in and day out, watching those interviews and just seeing what some of these kids have had to endure, it makes me want to do all I can to try to get some form of justice for them, Even if it's not the justice that they wanted.
Still, I want to make sure that them and their family get some services that they're going to need to help them move on regardless of the outcome of the criminal case.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: I'm wondering, Corey, could you think about the person again, who's listening, who maybe hasn't.
Isn't fully familiar with how a typical investigation would works out, how it goes from beginning to end. So could you walk through what a typical investigation looks like as a child abuse detective?
[00:04:15] Speaker B: Well, let's just say it's a sex abuse case. If a, if a child makes an outcry that they have been sexually abused, well, the first thing, officers go out, they take a report.
If the perpetrator lives in the home, they will call the detective, say, hey, what is it that you would like for us to do?
What we do is we have them bring the victim and their family members down here and whoever the perpetrator is, bring them down into custody. The child is immediately forensically interviewed regarding what happened.
A lot of the, our victims are between the age of usually 4 and maybe 14.
It all depends. The interview is conducted. After the interview, if the child makes what we called a good outcry or they, they say that they were physically or sexually abused. Following the interview, the detectives, we go and we talk to the perpetrator or we make an attempt to talk to a perpetrator, the child is then Taken to the hospital for a sane exam, a sexual assault exam, if that's necessary.
Following the interview, the perpetrator may or may not be taken to jail. It depends upon the circumstances. And at some point, the case is filed with the Dallas county district attorney's office, Then that's where the process begins as far as the legal standpoint of whether there's going to be a prosecution or not.
And in the process, when those children are down here at the advocacy center, their families meet with child advocates who talk to them about services that they may need, whether it's counseling services or whatnot. And so it's just a total process of how things go. Each case is different. The majority of our sexual abuse outcries are delayed, sometimes up to several years.
Kids are. Kids are. If you got kids or if, you know kids. Kids are kind of different. Not all kids are the same. A lot of kids will wait before they make an outcry about what happened to them. For a myriad of reasons, it's all different.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I can imagine. Right. Yeah, it's. It's a. The timelines on them can be quite long. Talk a little bit about, you know, and this. Feel free to take this in whichever direction you want. But investigative skills, like, there's something there with what. What investigative skills are unique in what you do versus maybe like a typical investigation, or is there anything that's unique?
[00:07:10] Speaker B: Well, it's unique for us, I think, because of our training.
If it's a sexual abuse case, you got to know the lingo.
You want to look into the perpetrator's history to see if there is some prior history. Before I interview someone, I want to know everything I can about them.
I'll sit down at my computer. I'll look this person up. I'll check them through the city of Dallas police database. I'll check them through the county database. Is there any type of previous history, any prison or anything? I'd like to know what the family dynamics are, what's going on in that house. I'd like to know a little bit about the kid and if there's any type of evidence that might be present. That evidence will be collected and taken to the forensic sciences office and have that analyzed. If it's need, it's needed.
[00:08:13] Speaker A: So talk a little bit. Like, I mean, so it's probably, what, 90s? When. When did you get started in the field?
[00:08:21] Speaker B: 93. I joined the department, and it was 2004 that I came to the child abuse unit.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: Right on. So 2004. So we're at 20 years. Yeah, 20 years now. Talk a little bit about, like, what, what. How is technology shifted and changed how investigative techniques are done on a. On a typical case? Like, what was it like when you first started? What were some of the tools you were using versus now?
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting you say that, because when I, when I first joined the unit, you know, there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram. There was.
Social media had really just started, I believe was MySpace is what it was. When I first joined, everybody wasn't walking around with a cell phone, especially not kids.
So over the years, it's progressed to where almost every child, you know, has a cell phone. I think it's not a good thing that young kids have access, unlimited access to, to social media, because that in itself, social media has created an access for predators to access children, whereas before that, that was never an avenue because it didn't exist.
So that's created a whole different set of scenarios as far as investigations.
Here in a lot of police departments, we have an Internet Crimes Against Children unit, which is a totally different unit. It's our sister unit. All of the crimes that involve children on the Internet, they investigate those cases.
Anything involving a cell phone or whatnot, they investigate those cases. A lot of times you'll have predators pose as other children and ask for explicit photos, and the next thing you know, that person's at their house. And I mean, it's gone in a direction that they never thought it would go in. And so it's great that we have that Internet Crimes Against Children unit because they do a lot of work over there and it's extremely busy. It's a very technical field, and they do a lot of training along with the FBI and other agencies that they're constantly getting training on.
The things that they do, I cannot do. I'm not qualified for that technically.
[00:10:53] Speaker A: Sure. And it sounds, though, like, even in the. To your point earlier, like when, you know, in the typical investigation, you know, just going out and doing the Internet research, going to the Facebook, trying to look at, you know, potential perpetrators and what, what you can find online seems like a path that is pretty normal today for you.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: It is. And a lot of the, A lot of the information there that's on cell phones, those ICAC detectives, they'll get search warrants for cell phones. They have specific search warrants for Internet providers, and Instagram and Facebook, they have their own search warrants for them. And so if they need to get that information off of the accounts, they can do that off the social media accounts.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: I might be over inflating something here and if I am, please tell me. But you know, it seems like, seems like in a lot of this is really, I mean it's super challenging work. You know, the psychological potentials, the maybe emotional and maybe the overall just toll on it. So doing this as long as you have. Can you talk about one longevity, like how have you personally been able to maintain this for so long? And, and what, what are some things that contribute to building resilience that others should know about what you do?
[00:12:12] Speaker B: You know, initially when I started there was a detective here, he's long gone, his name was Mike Camp and he told me, he said, look, look kid, if you're going to make it in this unit, you've got to take your regular time off.
You've got to get away from this stuff.
When you leave and take a vacation, don't take a week, take two weeks. And try not to be consumed with the work. I remember early on there would be nights, I'd wake up in the middle of night thinking, oh my God, I should have done this, I should have done that. What am I going to do? What if that happens?
I used to think about the, watching all the forensic interviews and hearing the horrible stories. And one good thing is therapy. I definitely believe in going to therapy when needed. And our department offers therapy. They have a creative unit called the OWL Unit. Not only for detectives, but police officers in general. On this department, if you have any kind of issue or anything at all and you need some help, you need somebody to talk to, it's all confidential, you can go there and they will set you up with a therapist to speak with. And like I said, it's confidential. No one knows about it. So I'm really glad that they do offer that. But I'm big on meditating, I'm big on reading, I'm big on when I'm not at work, separating myself from work. And I found that doing that has allowed me to, to do this for so long. I have children of my own, I've got a 14 year old daughter and I've got a 30 year old son. And so one thing I had to tell myself was listen, work is work and home is home. You have to separate the two. If you allow work to bleed over into your home life too much, that will affect home, that will affect every relationship that you have. And so I made it my intent to, to not do that. And, and I've been pretty good at it as of late. But it's Something that I had to learn to do and something I had to be committed to do. And so by doing that, I'm a better person at home, and I'm a better person at work as well.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it seems like the barriers have to be pretty strong that you put in place, like, you know, and at the same time, reconciling the two, you know, in a very human centric way, just like, you know, what can't. What. What's going to bleed over no matter what. And. Yeah, that's. It's pretty heavy stuff, man. So what's maybe related to that? Tell me a little bit about, like, what's. What's something that you think people misunderstand about the work that you do?
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Well, I think when you say child abuse.
Let me say this. The majority of our cases that we work, the majority, like, say I usually work anywhere from 4 to 500 cases a year. Out of those 4 to 500 cases, I may file 150 cases.
A lot of it is just investigating everything that comes through the door we have to take a look at. Because you don't know which one is for real. You don't know which one is actually an offense.
I'd like to be able to say, well, hey, every kid's a victim, but every kid's not a victim that comes through and says they are. And so for us as detectives, we have to really think about, is this an offense? What is the intent there? Because the last thing any of us want to do is. Is put someone in jail who doesn't deserve to be there. And so for me and my colleagues, we do all we can to make the best decision possible, because we want to get it right every time. Because if there's any time that we get it wrong, and we later find out we get it wrong, we all want to make it right. And so I think there's a belief that the police in general just want to arrest people. And that's not true.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Can you talk about that a little more? That last part about, you know, finding out later that you got it wrong? Like, is there either scenarios or actual situations, like, how often does that happen? And. And what does that look like for. In your experience?
[00:16:48] Speaker B: I. I don't think it happens that often. I can give you an instance of my own where I did a homicide investigation and the guy came in, and I was a young detective at the time. I'd only been here a few years. And initially I thought, okay, I want a confession. I want a confession. But what I later found out is, yeah, let's get the truth. If a confession comes out of it, that's great.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: But.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: But we want to get the truth. I did a homicide investigation several years ago, and I like to think I'm a pretty decent interrogator. And I interrogated the guy, and he admitted that he had done all these things. And after a week or so, I went back over my interrogation with him and everything that he said, and I. I went out and I tried to corroborate some of the things that he said, and I couldn't. And what I ended up figuring out with, I went back and talked to him again. Well, the guy was just so afraid and so upset over the whole situation that he just confessed to doing something that he never did.
And it was. It was a big learning.
It was a learning process for me and for some of the other people that I work with, we just want to be as thorough as possible.
And so sometimes we do get it wrong. But if we do find out we get it wrong, it's incumbent upon us to make it right as long as we learn that something was wrong.
[00:18:37] Speaker C: When a situation like that occurs and you do find out you've gotten it wrong, how does that reopen the investigation with maybe the child that was involved? Do they get brought back into something like that, or does that kind of happen around them?
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Well, a lot of our.
On a lot of our cases, matter of fact, I had one just the other day.
The child ended up telling her mom that. That she made it all up because she was upset because her stepdad had taken away her phone and that she felt really bad about it. So on a case like that, what we do, we'll bring the child back in for what we call a recant interview, and we give the child a chance to say what they came in to talk about. One thing the interviewer will say is something such as, well, since we talked last time, what has changed since the last time we talked? And that's the segue for the child to come forward and say whatever it is that they want to say. And so that's one way that we end up taking care of that. And if that's the case, we'll release the charge if we believe that this child's recant is legitimate. Because a lot of times they may be coached. And so that's a whole different rabbit trail to go down. But we have to try to look into that and make sure the child isn't being coached. But if they're not being coached and really realize that the wrong decision was made. Well, then we would do what's called a release charge and have that person taken out of jail.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: I think this is right in line with what I was thinking. And I don't know if there's an easy way to tackle this or answer this. It's kind of a big, broad hypothetical thing, but it relates to justice. Corey so, so what I'm curious about is what does justice look like in these cases? And I know there's a sense that it's like a case by case, for sure. You know, in this case, justice looks like this. But is there, I guess maybe the deeper question a little bit is how do you view justice? Like, how do you think about that? And then how does that play its way into, you know, the case by.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: Case that you're, that you're involved in, you know, mine. One thing, one thing I do is I talk to parents after the interviews or whatnot, and we make a decision and we feel like this child has been violated or, or the law has been broken. I'll sit down with, with the mom or father, whomever, and I'll say, look, this is what I guarantee you that I will do. I will do everything possible. I will gather every bit of evidence, and I can. I will do everything that I'm supposed to do as a detective to get the best case I can to the prosecutor. That's what I promise you I can do. I can't promise you justice, but that I can promise you, because justice isn't in my hand. It's not. Justice is in the hand of the jury.
And for what I what I've found is, in a lot of cases, even if it's not the outcome that they have hoped for, a lot of times people just being heard and going through the process and getting them the help that they need might has been constellation to them that their story was told.
Especially for teenagers, a lot of time they feel like they haven't been heard. Nobody believes them. But the mere fact that someone does listen to them and they go through the process, a lot of times that's enough for them and they can get the counseling and the help they need to move on.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Tell me a little too Corey, maybe switching gears a little bit, maybe back to some of, like, the job details, practical things, what are ways that you stay, like, what trainings do you have to go continually stay on top of? What are the things you go through that kind of keep you on the leading edge of, you know, whether that's doing an Interview or what have you as it goes through this.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Well, we're housed at the Dallas Children's Advocacy Center. Every so often the DCAC will bring in lecturers, other professionals in the field, and they will offer a lecture series where case studies are presented to detectives and CPS and other law enforcement personnel. Every so often. There's also the International Child Abuse Conference that's held here in Dallas every year where you've got presenters from all over the world coming in, presenting cases and teaching classes or whatnot. All that's available for detectives and law enforcement everywhere. I've done case. I presented case studies myself at the child abuse conference on cases that I've worked. When I say I work four to 500 cases a year, that's a lot of cases and more cases than most small cities will work. One detective or several detectives. And so basically I feel that I have a lot to offer and so I'm able to do that. And there's pretty much unlimited training.
You just got to be willing to do it. And different agencies have to make their officers available to take it. But there is training out there. There's constant updates.
We even do training, different trainings on the computer where we are required to take every so often.
They're state mandated.
[00:24:46] Speaker C: You mentioned that you were housed through the child advocacy center. How does that differ from investigating through other means? Like what is, how is that specialized?
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Well, it's specialized because here, the proverbial, I like to say one shop stop. Because everything we need to, to do our job is here.
The majority of our children are forensically interviewed. That's done here. The therapists are located here. The family advocates are located here. There is a representative from the Dallas county district attorney's office, Jennifer Sawyer. She's their intake for all the child abuse cases. She's officed out of here.
The Dallas County Medical examiner's office, they will come over here when we need them to if it's something that they need to get involved in. So all of our resources that we need are housed here or available at the advocacy center.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Yeah, Huge unlock. I feel like colocation being right there.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: Right.
[00:25:56] Speaker A: Very important.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: I remember before, before we moved in this building, if I had someone arrested on warrant or whatnot and I wanted to talk to them, our older. Our older. Oldest. Oldest. Excuse me, Older building was much smaller actually it was just a two story house. If someone was arrested, I would have to go to headquarters and speak with them. Whereas now, hey, I just tell them, bring them here to my office at the advocacy center. And we can do what needs to be done.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: So here's a, here's another one. A little bit looking back on either your younger self or maybe the next generation coming up behind you, what advice would you give somebody in law enforcement or interested in getting into law enforcement looking to specialize in this very specific thing?
[00:26:43] Speaker B: Wow.
Well, you're going to have to have a heart for it because I'll tell people this work is not for the faint at heart.
There's been detectives that have come here and man, after a year they realize, hey, this isn't for me. It's just, especially if they have young kids at home, because you're going to see a lot. You, you're going to deal with death. You're going to deal in many cases with the worst things you'll ever see. It's one thing to see it when you have adult victims, but when you have children who are pretty much helpless, that can really weigh on your heart. But you have to have a passion for the job and you have to give it a try.
I teach at the academy quite a bit and I tell the officers there, hey, you guys are going to be coming down here on a regular basis, bringing kids down here as victims. You guys are going to sit and you're going to watch what we do. And if you decide it's something that you might want to do, hey, give us a shout and there's an opening. Hey, apply.
But it's hard work. It's, it's gratifying work, but it's hard work.
It's not for everybody, but, but it is for that special person. And we have a young group of detectives in now that some have been on two or three years and man, they are fantastic. They're absolutely fantastic.
I think some of us older detectives are bringing them up well, they're ready to go. They're go getters. Me being a little older, I'm not as astute with all the technology because you got to realize when, when I graduated from college, the Internet hadn't been created yet. So, you know, and all the technical training with computers, I didn't have all that. I was a late bloomer. So our younger detectives, I mean, they're a whiz when it comes to the technology. And I'm so grateful that they're here.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah, how cool to be a part of that evolution though as well. Going from seeing it know, no Internet to, you know, all this talk about AI today. So very interesting.
[00:29:06] Speaker C: And even seeing the evolution of like how a child advocacy's Intervene functions. I know even the history at CACS is relatively modern, so I'm sure you've seen a lot of change in that as well.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: I have, I have. I know when.
When I first started in the unit, we were at the old building.
I think there was one CPS, CPS team over there. And there might have been 30 employees with the Children's Advocacy Center. Now at the new center, I believe there's two or 300 employees in addition to four CPS groups here, in addition to us. And I mean, it's just. It grows by leaps and bounds every year and it's needed because unfortunately, crime increases every year. And so it's really a unique work environment.
I could imagine what it would be without it. It would be really, really different and really hard. But I'm just so grateful that, that we're here and they're able to provide us all the resources to support us in what we're doing.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah, the power that again, I think that it goes not just the co. Location, but the power that comes from a group of people with the same mission and the same desire and the same energy towards. We want to see this be righted.
That's power. That's really powerful.
Tell me a little bit, Corey. So, you know, we kind of hit on this a bit already. But how is this career, your career thus far? How has it transformed your understanding of human nature?
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Oh, man.
You know, when I was a child, when I grew up, man, I didn't know anything about child abuse other than my mom maybe hit me with her. With a.
A shoe or something or threatening me. I mean, that was child abuse to me. But, man, I didn't really know about child abuse. Child abuse, the things I work with every day. I didn't know about that, man, until I did my internship with the dc, with the department. And then once I actually got into the unit, I mean, man, that's when it was opened up. So I've seen a lot. I've grown a lot. And even though I've been doing this so long, I continue to grow.
Every day, every month, it's usually something different. And I just continue to grow because society grows in different ways. You know, we talked about technology earlier. I mean, it's constantly evolving. And as that constantly evolve, it gives more way to perpetrators to find different ways to do things to children and lure them in. And that's where we get involved. And so we have to stay in tune with all that and just keep growing as well.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: Yeah, man, I feel like it could get Real easy to get skeptical or pessimistic about the good nature in people, seeing what you see and experiencing what you experience and get, you know, get to that point where you just see the, the.
The dark side of things. But it sounds to your point earlier about having the right heart.
I think that that's something I read out in you as somebody who has the right heart, who can still see the, the good, you know, even. Even amongst that darkness.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And let me touch on something.
One of the things that I try to teach to the younger detectives is especially on physical abuse cases, a lot of times we'll get these cases in where kids are physically abused, and some on lower levels and some on upper levels and on the lower levels. A lot of time, the, the, the parents, I think they were just never taught how to discipline, or a lot of the cases are what we consider over discipline. Whereas if it's their first time in, if it's something minor, a lot of times we'll check, look at their background, talk to them, listen to their story, and, you know, if their heart was in the right place and they were trying to do the right thing, but just didn't know how, because a lot of people don't know how and their heart is in the right place, especially when it comes to discipline. And if it's not anything too bad, we'll just sit down, we'll just talk to them and say, listen, this time we're going to let you make it, but you need to find another form of how you're going to discipline and deal with your child. Even though state law gives you the right to discipline your child, but it's only to a certain extent. But once you get to the point of over discipline, that's when cps, that's when the police get in your life. So I'll advise them to make some different decisions, go to some parenting classes. A lot of times that's with cps, they'll say, okay, we find reason to believe that they did this over discipline, but we're going to set them up for parenting classes. And so a lot of times, instead of filing a criminal offense against somebody if their heart's in the right place and they were trying to do the right thing, but they just didn't know how we ended up dealing with that differently.
[00:34:58] Speaker A: Wow. I feel like that's really important. That's really important. And you don't really hear it talked about that much, but I think that, I think that's really true. You know, if you don't if you're. As a parent and I have kids of my own, it's like, as a parent, if you weren't given. If you weren't given the right, you know, handed down the right, this is how you discipline or this is how you do that. How easy it is or how easy it could be to fall into that.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: Yeah, because what. What I found is a lot of the. In situations like that, they do what they were taught when they were children.
They do what they were taught when they were children, and what they taught was wrong. What was okay in the 70s is not okay in 2024.
[00:35:41] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:35:42] Speaker B: The. The laws were different. And, man, I could tell you some stories because I grew up in the 70s.
[00:35:49] Speaker A: Corey, man, thanks so much. This is, I feel like one of the most valuable conversations I feel like we've had on podcast and just so thankful that you took the time. I just want to also offer a moment to. To extend it and affirm you, like the heart that. And the passion that you bring in what you're doing. You know, for somebody like us, we're. We're in the. We're in Omaha, you're in Texas, but from a.
Yeah, so we're. We're way up here in Nebraska, but even from a distance, it's. It's noticeable the work that you're doing and the impact that you're having, and even folks like us who aren't directly involved, you know, in Frontline work. So thank you for the years you put in, for the years that you have to come, and for all the work that you. That you've done, and just for taking the time to share a little bit about what you do and who you are.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: Man, I thank you for having me on, and I thank you for allowing me to have a voice and provide an audience for someone to hear just a little bit of what I. What I had to say, and it means a lot, and I appreciate it, man.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. And for anyone listening, I think at any point, if you're interested and you want to connect with Corey, we can follow up and we can make sure that you have an opportunity to maybe connect with him and hear his story a little bit more. Again, Corey, thanks for taking the time to be on podcast with us.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: Okay. Thanks, Myron. Have a good one, man.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Real Evidence podcast. We hope you found some value in this conversation. We really appreciated having Corey on to share his unique experience and all of the years that he's been doing what he's been doing. Please consider subscribing future episodes of this podcast and check us out at www.gardify.com if you're interested in Gardify as a solution. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.