Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Real Evidence podcast. Today, Ashley and I are joined by Amanda and Ellie from Project Harmony here in Omaha. We had the pleasure to speak with them about a new program that they're launching. It's already been launched at the beginning of the year called the Communities of Practice. We're really excited for you to hear about what the way they're innovating in this space and really trying to help forensic interviewers level up in their craft.
We love Project Harmony. We love partnering with them. We've actually had somebody from Project Harmony on the podcast before. That was Colleen. Feel free to go back and listen to that podcast. But today we're going to talk about something really unique that Project Harmony is working on. We're really excited to dive into this. It's this idea of a Communities of Practice. And so rather than me trying to talk about what that is, I'm going to let Ellie introduce Ellie and let her speak to what the Communities of Practice are. And we would love to just share this idea with y'all. So go ahead, Ellie.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Ellie and I'm a forensic interviewer at Project Harmony and I am one of the interviewers here that kind of spearheaded this community of practice from Project Harmony. And it is a 12 month cohort of advanced interviewers around the nation that gets together monthly and talks about a specific topic. And those topics were chosen by the team of interviewers here at Project Harmony where we found were needed. And so they're more maybe advanced topics that we would consider and things. So like I said, yeah, we meet monthly. It's a group of interviewers around the nation and talking about advanced topics in interviewing.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Amanda, can you tell us just a little bit about yourself and your role in this as well?
[00:01:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Hi, I'm Amanda Kushak. I'm also an interviewer here at Project Harmony and me and Ellie actually manage our team together. And so we have a team of interviewers, but we also still do interviewing actively as well.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Awesome. So, Ellie, just a little bit before we get into. Because we're going to talk about like the bigger vision. Why? And we'll get into some of like the practices and some of the nuances with this thing. But how long has this been going? Is it actively going on? How long has it been going on and sort of been a thing that you've been working on?
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's actively going. We started our first cohort in January, so we've had our January session, our February session, in our March session. And we actually have our April session tomorrow and it's been going wonderful. We've gotten great feedback. It's been such rich discussion. We've learned so much from the other interviewers that have came and participated.
I know we've been able to share some of our tools and tricks with them. And so we've gotten great feedback from the people that are participating in this.
[00:02:57] Speaker D: Cohort along with identifying the need of having this community. What is the reason that you felt like it was now was a good time? What's that bigger vision that brought you to, hey, this is something we should probably be doing?
[00:03:11] Speaker C: Yeah. At Project Harmony, we are lucky. We have a pretty big team of interviewers. And then we've also been able to get a few years under our belt for several of us. And so we've done all the foundational stuff. We've done some specialty trainings as well. And I think we were looking for ways to grow further as interviewers and really kind of struggled to find the training or the rich discussion that we were looking for. And so the community of practice is modeled a little bit around like mentoring or consultation groups. So it's similar, but this is more for those experienced interviewers and really being able to dive in a little bit deeper to some of those topics that we run across in all of our interviews.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: So what would be some of the, like when you say an experienced interviewer, is it like certain amount of time spent in the role, certain amount of interviews done? What are some of the things that y'all are thinking about in terms of like at what point would that person start looking for something like this or be a part of this?
[00:04:16] Speaker C: Yeah, so we do have a requirement to participate. So you have to have at least one year of experience or 100 interviews completed. And then you also have to have done your initial protocol training, which is typically like a 40 hour course.
It doesn't matter which protocol you're using, but that you have that initial training and then those years or those number of interviewers or interviews. And also you have to be employed at a cac. We want to make sure we're focused on that style of interviewing. There are times that investigators or caseworkers with the state might do forensic interviews as well. But we want to focus kind of on the CAC approach.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: I think another thing that is a requirement that I think it allows more buy in for these interviews is a supervisor sign off on their participation. So I think from our perspective that really showed like, hey, your supervisor knows and allowed you to be involved in this.
So maybe just a little bit more push and a little bit more conversation of how that's going. We found that being really important that there was not only buy in from the interviewer themselves, but from their leadership.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: What did it look like? What was the process before this? Or was there anything. Was this just a complete, like there wasn't anything that was serving this need or. I'm assuming there was some things, but it just didn't. It wasn't like a holistic approach to it. So can you talk to us a little bit about like what did, what did this look like before?
[00:05:53] Speaker B: So as far as interview training, we have our 40 hour basic training that goes over your protocol and a really big picture of interviewing that that's a must have before you start.
And then we have some specialty training and some advanced trainings in the field of interviewing and that's, you know, on trafficking and interviewing people, people with disabilities and things like that. But beyond that, that's where our interviewers were kind of feeling stuck where to go. There weren't a lot of mentor groups. There is a beginner mentor group that they do, but that's more for those like first year interviewers.
So. And we really encouraged professional development here at Project Harmony. But we were kind of getting hit with some barriers of what does that look like? Our interviewers were coming back from some trainings of. It didn't really relate to interviewing. It was a great topic, it was super interesting training. But I don't know what I can take from that and implement into my interview. So we kind of. That's where that stemmed from. So as far as having a community of practice or something like this in the field right now, we haven't seen that. And that's why we wanted to create this because we know there are many other interviewers that are advanced in probably finding the same thing, which that's been our feedback that they felt this way, that could benefit from that.
[00:07:26] Speaker D: So we've kind of covered that. This addresses gaps in resources or training. What kind of other specific things are you seeing that this fills the need for in terms of reviewing interview tactics and things along those lines?
[00:07:42] Speaker C: You know, one thing that interviewers are required to do typically for accreditation is peer review. And so that's something that Project Harmony, we participate in multiple peer review groups monthly.
And it's similar for other CACs as well. And those are great. They're just a mixture of different levels of experience, different procedures and processes at CACs, different protocols. And a lot of times they're Large groups of people. And so the feedback oftentimes might not be as focused on what you were truly wanting, or maybe it's very surface level feedback. They're not people that you know. So you're kind of dancing around, trying not to hurt anybody's feelings, you know. So the dynamics are a little different in that whereas in this community of practice, you're with the same people every month, you get to know them, you get to know kind of the things that they're working on, and you can really kind of focus in on the specific type of feedback that you want.
[00:08:49] Speaker D: So would you say that this establishes norms in those review processes or establishes maybe a different level of self critique almost of the topics that you guys are covering in this cohort?
[00:09:02] Speaker C: Yeah. So in the community of practice, yes, we wanted to dive more into the peer review process, but also into self review. And so that's a big piece of the community of practice, is doing self reviews, which actually isn't necessarily a norm right now for the field. I think a lot of times that practice itself is minimized. And so we've also kind of started this in the last couple years to really implement true self review, where you're watching yourself back and you're looking at portions of your interview. It doesn't have to be the whole interview like you would do in peer review.
And really diving deeper into that and looking at the research, talking through with your supervisor, that way you have a little bit more richer feedback and things that you can actually take into your next interview.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: So this is really amazing. This what it sounds like to me and what I really appreciate about what we've talked about thus far is a couple of the differences. One is it's very like human centric, like relational centric. You're around the same people for a consistent amount of time. They kind of. They get to know you, they get to know what your quirks are, what the things are that you're bringing in. So the coaching is really not just like a point in time, it's a point over time thing. I think that sounds like it's a fairly unique thing. Is that fair?
Yes, that's one of the things.
[00:10:23] Speaker C: Yes, that's correct.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: Awesome. And then what about what does it look like after the 12 months? So is there like a network being built on this on top of this as well? So, like, I go through, I'm part of a cohort now. I'm sort of a part of a community that maybe extends over for a long period of time.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: What does that look like so within your 12 months you do get what we call a consultation point and that is where you can reach out to us. So whether that be your leader or Colleen, who is also helping us and is our director here. And that's for like a one on one consultation. So we would meet over zoom or however they want that they could share a self review. They could share an interview and say I'm really struggling with this and get feedback in that. And that's more of that one on one beyond the full group kind of more exam more advanced than what we were able to talk about. So we do offer that and they can take that up after the 12 months.
We have not gone beyond the 12 months at this time. I think it's looking at capacity. I think this is a huge need in the field and we find that some people might not have the resources or the support that we do here at Project Harmony. And we obviously can't necessarily take that all on.
But we're really trying to connect them to their regional centers and other people near them and other interviewers like this that we can still keep in touch. They have our emails, they can share amongst themselves. So always willing to stay connected and bounce ideas off of each other. But beyond just kind of very, what should I say, unstructured past the 12 months, we don't necessarily have anything.
[00:12:23] Speaker C: I could add to that a little bit. I think we don't. Yeah, we don't have a formal plan as far as what happens after the 12 months, but every four months a new cohort starts. So passing it on to other people at your center or. Yeah, like Ellie said, we already have an email group of each community or each cohort and so. And we're already sharing articles, research with each other every month. And so that communication has already established and there's no reason for that to end after the 12 months.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: And I think the cool thing about interviewing is there's so many topics, there's so many advanced topics, there's so many unique things that we can all get together and discuss. So while we have these 12 topics now that will kind of go through three cohorts, we're always open for more topics and what that looks like for maybe around two of a whole new set of topics if there's a need, which I would assume so always open for that as well.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: I took us off a little bit, so thanks for going down that rabbit hole with me. Let's come back a little bit to the self review side of the things or sorry, excuse me, not the self review side of the things, the peer review side of the thing. So Amanda, you were talking about this a second ago and you talked about a little bit more definition there. So Amanda, could you just tell us a little bit more about how this is different than peer review?
[00:13:50] Speaker C: Yeah. So again, peer review is still very important. I don't want to minimize peer review because again, it's required in most places and it is still very beneficial. And there's research talking about the benefits of peer review and that. I think a lot of times it's assumed interviewers, as they get higher numbers or do more interviews, they get better. But actually there's research saying you might drift into old habits, you might not be following best practices anymore and not even realizing it. And so both peer review and self review are very important. So I want to make sure I clear that up. But anyways, peer review is going to be more of like, are you following best practices? Are you following the protocol at your center? And so a lot of times you'll get feedback about like question types, like making sure you're opening your question back up. You could have asked it like this or I like to ask it like that.
And you know, just sharing experiences and talking a lot about process at your CAC versus mine and then remaining neutral in different settings. Those are kind of the frequent types of feedback that you'll get in peer review.
Whereas self review is kind of a. It's a deeper dive. So obviously self reflecting on what you did in your interview, watching it back, and then thinking more about dynamics with the child and then also how you maybe influence some of those dynamics. So a lot of times you're in the interview, you feel things differently than the people that are watching.
And that's your experience and that's how you make decisions in the moment. On, I'm gonna go this route instead of that route, or I might come back to that because I'm feeling like there's a barrier here. And other people might not realize that watching it live or later on, but then when you go back to watch it too, you might realize I maybe didn't read that situation correctly and it was more of me projecting onto them.
So different things like that that you might notice in self review, a big one too, is like decision points. So you're gonna run into multiple points in an interview where you have to make a decision. Like I said, you're gonna go this way or that way, or take a break here, not take a break. There's just different things that you're Deciding upon within an interview. And so looking back at those decisions in self review and deciding, you know, was that the right decision? I don't, you know, it was an okay decision. I don't think it was wrong, but maybe I would do it a little differently next time. And so really looking at the critical thinking piece there and then, I think that's helpful too. When you're working on specific skills, you can kind of see how that affects your decision making and critical thinking too. And then the emotional side of it is a big one too. And that's what often comes up in some self review is the emotions of the child and your emotions in the interview and how it affected you during the interview and after. And that's a big thing that I think often is missed with interviewing.
So diving deeper into that is kind of what self review is. And I think also it's not just you watching it by yourself and making all these conclusions. It's watching it by yourself and then bringing it to a group or bringing it to supervision and reviewing that. Because a lot of times that discussion afterwards is where you get really good feedback.
[00:17:29] Speaker D: So with that self review process, you're, you're coming into this a year plus into being a forensic interviewer. You've probably developed some patterns or some, some rigid behavior in how you're asking questions. Are you seeing this improving that in a way where people maybe outside of your normal group of interviewers are identifying, hey, you're asking questions this way, maybe this can be asked this way.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think that's what's so great about community of practice is it's the same people meeting each month. So we want that comfortable relationship so people can say like, hey, I noticed you've done this a couple of times. Have you thought about doing this?
I think the one thing that we can stick to in interviewing is there's no right or wrong answer. So nobody is coming out and saying you're doing all of this wrong and you should do it my way. But it's a lot of bouncing ideas off of each other, learning new styles and new question types, even tweaking just one word that can really change that child's answer, which is so awesome about interviewing and which makes, you know, just interviewing a science because it's all about your question type and how you ask.
So yeah, we have found that the discussion is rich.
Everybody's kind of bringing their thoughts and their examples to the table and we're learning a lot from each other.
[00:18:51] Speaker C: I think a piece that we haven't Mentioned yet is in the community of practice, it's not just discussion. So we are bringing our own self reviews to the group or we are bringing clips, sending clips and playing those throughout. So we're not doing a full interview, full peer review, but we're still bringing examples so we can see.
Well, I'm assuming we'll be able to see kind of the progress with group members and then see the different styles that we all have. And so when you're watching people from other places and with different levels of advanced experience, that's when you find those takeaways too. And maybe just while watching yourself, you realize that you have some of those habits or, or things that you didn't realize you were still doing.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: So let's keep going a little bit. We've talked a little bit about some of the process with communities practice, like the cohorts and sort of some details about who would come into it. But Ellie, could you tell us a little bit more just about the overall process, maybe go a little deeper. Who is it for sort of what is like the first entry onboarding coming into it look like and a little bit maybe more about the cohorts as well.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So community of practice is for interviewers all around, so not specific to Nebraska or Omaha. We want to invite all interviewers that are interviewing at a CAC and then so kind of what it looks like is it's for 12 months. So we have 12 different topics that we will go over and each month is a specific topic. Technically we have 13 because we have an onboarding topic and that's to go over self reviews is, which is what we've been talking about. And I would say that is more of training than what you're going to get in your discussions throughout the next 12 months. And we preface that and we let them know that's an extra one because as we've stated before, most interviewers coming in don't even know what a self review is or haven't even began to do that.
And so Colleen and Amanda come on and kind of really introduce that topic. What's the need? How is it different than peer review? Kind of like what we've been talking, giving them our forms and how to do that and inviting them to share, to go and try a self review and then come back and share in your following, cohort your self reviews and to invite them for discussion. And then from there, so that's your orientation and your onboarding first session and then you'll have a set number of topics and like I said a specific topic, you'll be told like what that is. And some of those topics stem from like online crimes, episodic for script memory, reluctant kids. So just very advanced topics compared to your surface level, like protocols.
Like I stated earlier, we do offer that consultation as well and that can be taken any time and they would just reach out individually for that.
And we do have makeup sessions. I'm not sure if you want me to go into this, but we do. We have like one set session a month just so we can make sure everybody comes in and then obviously we know things happen, emergencies come up. We work in a crisis field, so we do have a makeup session as well.
[00:22:26] Speaker D: So I know that. Amanda, you're a clinician. Ellie, you work at this from a clinical perspective as well. How does this address that clinical perspective that you guys work with?
[00:22:34] Speaker C: Yeah, so at Project Harmony we do work towards like full licensure as a mental health practitioner, but that's not necessarily standard. So other people, other sites maybe don't have that requirement and that's ok. But because of this we've been able to incorporate some of that clinical perspective into these discussions or into your self review. And really that's kind of what it is, is you're looking deeper at the interview with a clinical lens.
And so kind of diving into that personal experience really is good for clinical discussion and clinical supervision as mental health practitioners. So some of the things that I mentioned before really kind of fulfill that need. So the decision points, what decision did you make? Would you make the same decision again next time?
And also that emotional toll, so that's, you know, those are things that you come across in the mental health field in general. And so really diving into the mental effort versus the emotional effort. We do a lot of reflective practice discussion too, which is another, you know, set of training that you can do. But it's a, it's a form of supervision that really helps look at things more clinically.
[00:23:58] Speaker D: If you were maybe addressing an interviewer who is interested or maybe on the fence about joining this, maybe they have reservations, what would you maybe say to clear some of those hesitations up for them?
[00:24:11] Speaker C: I think every, you know, interviewer in every CAC has different levels of experience receiving feedback and that can be kind of scary, I think, for, I mean, it's scary for everyone. And then as interviewers we're getting feedback all the time. Even if we're not doing peer review or self review. We're hearing from investigators and from senior CPs and so that can be really overwhelming.
But I think this group is different because we're all learning from each other. We're still going to have different levels of experience, but we're still taking away something from every session. And so, yeah, there are moments where you have to be vulnerable and talk about an interview that maybe you wish you would have done differently, but the takeaways are so much better because of it.
And then you have a community to support you with it too, saying, yeah, I did that too. This is my experience. And, you know, so I think there's a lot of sharing and relating within the group as well.
Whereas maybe you don't get that as much in peer review because you're able to connect and learn from each other. Ongoing.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: Amanda, Ellie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk about this. We know it just launched at the beginning of this year, we know it's in progress and there's still a lot of things y'all are working through, but just what you've already done seems so amazing and I'm really excited to see where this goes. I think a lot of people will be excited to see where this goes. For anyone listening to this podcast who's interested to learn more about the communities of practice, or maybe an interviewer who's actually really interested in this, do you have any suggestions for how they could go out on the interwebs and find you? We could always make sure we put that in the show notes, but how can they somebody listening to this learn more about the community's practice?
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah, so you can get on to our Project Harmony training website from our homepage. You can get to our training portal and that will have information on there about our community of practice. We also post on like NCA Engage if they're on that. I know Gardafi has put out our flyer as well, so you can get our contact information off of our flyer or you can always just call Project Harmony and get a hold of Colleen or Amanda or Ellie or any of the people involved in Community of Practice and we will point you in the right direction. We would love for anyone and everyone to get involved.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: Amazing. Thank you both so much for joining the conversation today. We really appreciate.
